Rotating Boycotts
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@Soteria Mom and Pops are over… for now. The ecosystem has to change to support them, I agree.
I guess my point is as long as there are competing businesses even if they are just a few, we can screw with them heavily by collectively boycotting one of them for 3 months. Especially if its a scheduled thing and not reactive. Not unless they meet our demands, which initially we know they will not.
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@Soteria Mom and Pops are over… for now. The ecosystem has to change to support them, I agree.
I guess my point is as long as there are competing businesses even if they are just a few, we can screw with them heavily by collectively boycotting one of them for 3 months. Especially if its a scheduled thing and not reactive. Not unless they meet our demands, which initially we know they will not.
@unshittified said in Rotating Boycotts:
Mom and Pops are over… for now. The ecosystem has to change to support them, I agree.
And ought we ban cell phones and go back to rotaries? You are arguing against economies of scale. Of what use is being morally opposed to something when it is a natural process? The centralization of retail commerce in this case. There is no way of returning without choking the entire domestic retail industry. I'm interested in going forward, not backwards.
Boycotts... it's a tough sell. You are right that you can boycott just one at a time. But the reality is only a small segment of their sales come from people that think like you and would be willing to boycott. Only two boycotts in recent memory have been successful—Starbucks and Bud Light—in both cases because the companies had market segments with relatively homogenous opinions, and they directly betrayed their customers' sensibilities. There is little political about which grocery store people buy from, it's mostly what's close to them and has reasonable prices.
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@unshittified said in Rotating Boycotts:
Mom and Pops are over… for now. The ecosystem has to change to support them, I agree.
And ought we ban cell phones and go back to rotaries? You are arguing against economies of scale. Of what use is being morally opposed to something when it is a natural process? The centralization of retail commerce in this case. There is no way of returning without choking the entire domestic retail industry. I'm interested in going forward, not backwards.
Boycotts... it's a tough sell. You are right that you can boycott just one at a time. But the reality is only a small segment of their sales come from people that think like you and would be willing to boycott. Only two boycotts in recent memory have been successful—Starbucks and Bud Light—in both cases because the companies had market segments with relatively homogenous opinions, and they directly betrayed their customers' sensibilities. There is little political about which grocery store people buy from, it's mostly what's close to them and has reasonable prices.
@Jonathan so regarding mom and pops, lets not be binary about it; this isnt either forward or backward. What it comes down to is providing people with the autonomy and robust life experience that having successful mom and pops provides.
I am sure there are ways to allow mom and pops type autonomy and respectable income going forward, without going backward but we need to be creative about it.
Or if we do want to dip into the playbook of the past, maybe revisit collective bargaining law, which is disproportionately in favor of big business.
Maybe we should spin off a mom and pops thread because theres a lot to unpack there.
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@unshittified said in Rotating Boycotts:
Mom and Pops are over… for now. The ecosystem has to change to support them, I agree.
And ought we ban cell phones and go back to rotaries? You are arguing against economies of scale. Of what use is being morally opposed to something when it is a natural process? The centralization of retail commerce in this case. There is no way of returning without choking the entire domestic retail industry. I'm interested in going forward, not backwards.
Boycotts... it's a tough sell. You are right that you can boycott just one at a time. But the reality is only a small segment of their sales come from people that think like you and would be willing to boycott. Only two boycotts in recent memory have been successful—Starbucks and Bud Light—in both cases because the companies had market segments with relatively homogenous opinions, and they directly betrayed their customers' sensibilities. There is little political about which grocery store people buy from, it's mostly what's close to them and has reasonable prices.
@Jonathan said in Rotating Boycotts:
And ought we ban cell phones and go back to rotaries? You are arguing against economies of scale. Of what use is being morally opposed to something when it is a natural process? The centralization of retail commerce in this case. There is no way of returning without choking the entire domestic retail industry. I'm interested in going forward, not backwards.
The rotary/cell comment is a non-sequitor. That is, it is a technological change with no bearing on the structural change being discussed.
To call retail centralization a natural process may be true, but that doesn't make it healthy. We do many many things to combat the ill effects of natural processes.
Frankly, your comment sounds too close to the "monopolies are actually good" arguments that came out of the Chicago School and that were used to gut retail (among other sectors) and centralize wealth and income.
My off-the-cuff opinion is that any company too big to boycott is too big.
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@Jonathan said in Rotating Boycotts:
And ought we ban cell phones and go back to rotaries? You are arguing against economies of scale. Of what use is being morally opposed to something when it is a natural process? The centralization of retail commerce in this case. There is no way of returning without choking the entire domestic retail industry. I'm interested in going forward, not backwards.
The rotary/cell comment is a non-sequitor. That is, it is a technological change with no bearing on the structural change being discussed.
To call retail centralization a natural process may be true, but that doesn't make it healthy. We do many many things to combat the ill effects of natural processes.
Frankly, your comment sounds too close to the "monopolies are actually good" arguments that came out of the Chicago School and that were used to gut retail (among other sectors) and centralize wealth and income.
My off-the-cuff opinion is that any company too big to boycott is too big.
@jadero I disagree, the evolution of the phone is just as unstoppable a fact as factory-produced goods becoming cheaper than handmade goods, or 100 pallets delivered to one Walmart being more efficient than 10 to 10 smaller stores. Is that unhealthy? I'm not so sure. Well, let me clarify that I'm talking about small retail stores that sell the same products big stores do, and the only difference is who owns what and what things cost. There's a difference between that and a farm store or other boutique shop. I empathize with wanting to support those small businesses, but for Bob's Corner Grocery that's actually indistinguishable from a 7/11, I don't know, I don't really get it.
Monopolies are actually good? I don't think so. I think monopolies are neither good nor bad. Power and money are neither good nor bad. It's bad when power is used for evil and good when power is used for justice. All else being equal, would it not be better that a good man have more power and more money? If a Ford is too big to boycotted, I am happy that my enemies can't harm them in that way. If a Rockefeller is too big to be boycotted, I will rabidly advocate that federal government keep them in check.
@unshittified said in Rotating Boycotts:
What it comes down to is providing people with the autonomy and robust life experience that having successful mom and pops provides.
This makes sense to me. I think in general, the human desire (need?) for autonomy outweighs the "rational" market tendency towards centralization. Again, I just don't see the benefit that M&P retail stores provide to people and communities compared to any other small business. I grew up after supermarkets killed them all, so maybe I'm naive of the benefits. Or maybe you are romanticizing them
To bring this back to boycotts... a boycott is a tool of leverage. What you like to see them change?
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I believe that monopolies are bad, in most cases. Doctorow's writings explain some of the issues we see, at least on the technology side.
Having said that, I'm not sure boycotts are the answer. There is a decent amount of academic research showing that boycotts rarely have impact. There are a host of reasons why, including the fact that you'll never get that many people to participate, some people opposed to the boycott will increase purchases at the retailer, etc. Sorry, I wish I could do more than poke holes.
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Is it possible though that boycotts arent historically successful, but could be organized differently?
They’re historically reactionary which means individuals have to become aware of the problem every time and then search their soul whether it appeals to them, and the boycott has to gain steam. If they are agreed upon to be automatic they can be a future threat of collective action that can be avoided if demands are met. -
@Jonathan to @ilam.fields point we can start with the tech giants, whose issues have been enumerated. Sidenote: Enshittification narrated by Doctorow himself is available on spotify premium (if you have it) for free
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I realize I dodged your question though a little bit @Jonathan .
If we are boycotting Amazon we can start by targeting these things which directly impact the consumer:
- BS brands / products
- BS reviews
- Fake listings
- Bad search results
- Price manipulation
Of course, the solutions for these things can't come at the cost of other areas that less directly impact the consumer and should still be stated, namely:
- Bad conditions for workers
This one is more important; it should be included in the list.
How hard would it be to push all of our Amazon business to Target and Walmart for 3 months?
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https://indivisible.org/ does some recommended boycotts as well as protests. For instance, a proposed boycott of Amazon, Target, and Home Depot for black Friday weekend. I think part of the idea is that more targeted boycotts tied to specific objectionable actions in the news might work better as a message